New Civic beats the 147!

[WhipLash]

According to the latest edition of WhatCar, the new Honda Civic (1.6) beats the 147 1.6!!!!

According to the review, the ride of the 147 appeared to be near perfect on Italian roads. However, the ride deteriorated badly on English roads, with even the slightest of bumps being felt inside the cabin. Also they state that even though the quality of the build is much improved for an Alfa, the test model suffered from several rattles inside the vehicle. Imagine!!

I don't remember all the details as I read it in the labour ward (see Chit Chat for more news on that ;) ), but I'll have a better read later on and post up their findings - or maybe some Alfa fans have already read the article and are saying nought :rolleyes: :p

[BeCos]

I wouldn't read an article that compared any Alfa with any Civic because I'd be bored outa my t1ts for 50% of the time. No contest if you ask me......but anybody who wants to buy a Civic...."Work away" !!

[WhipLash]

The road test was actually between the Alfa 147 1.6, Ford Focus 1.6, and the new Honda Civic 1.6.

Heres are a few excerpts from the article.

“SMALL HATCH TRIPLE TEST”

ON THE ROAD
The Focus's ride is firm at low speeds, but cannot be described as uncomfortable. At higher speeds the body control is exceptional, while exquisite steering allows the driver to place it accurately on the road.

This is a challenge to which the Alfa 147 cannot rise. The chassis, a shorter version from the 156 sounds fine in principle, but is less successful in practice. It feels oddly unsuited to some UK driving conditions and is much less at home then it was when tested on smoother European roads. At low speeds the 147 picks out surface imperfections that go unnoticed by other cars. Speed things up over broken surfaces and the body bucks, weaves and shakes uncomfortably. This wouldn't be so bad if the pay-off was fine handling. But the steering response is more muted than other Alfas and while theres plenty of front-end grip, it lacks the finesse of the Focus. Nor is it ultimately entertaining to drive.

The Civic is less sporting than the other 2 cars, which reflects the more family orientated philosophy. But that is not to suggest that it is in any way less competent. The slightly softer suspension settings actually pay dividends in town where the ride is more similar to the Ford's and far superior to the Alfa's. This doesn't result is sloppy body control at higher speeds either. Like the Focus, the Civic never loses its composure even over badly rutted and underlating surfaces. There's a little more body lean in corners then its rivals, but its far from unsettling and the cause is helped by light, accurate steering. Be in no doubt, the Civic has an entertaining and talented chassis. Its more refined than the Alfa too, as the 147 transmits too much engine noise to the cabin, but top marks in this respect goes to the Focus.

The 147's engine is the most powerful of the trio, generating 120bhp compared with Honda's 108 and Fords paltry 99. It feels the most sprightly on the road, with useful pull from low in the rev range. Acceleration from 50-70mph in top gear takes just 13.6sec, while the Honda takes 14.5sec and a languid 18.2 for the Focus.

Summary
Alfa 3/5
Ford 5/5
Honda 4/5


IN THE CABINS
The Civic is a big car - at 14ft 1in, its six inches longer than the Ford and five greater then the Alfa. Wise use of the available space and a compact suspension design has helped to create an interior space that sets new standards in this class. Its quite possible for a 6ft tall person to sit comfortably behind a similarly sized driver, and there'll still be room for two others on the rear bench.

Although the Focus cannot match this, the cabin set new standards for space and comfort when it was unveiled, and can still impress today. While it loses out to the Civic for outright room, it can accommodate four adults in comfort.

Sadly the same cannot be said of the Alfa. To describe its available space as disappointing would be an understatement. Although front seat passengers are well catered for, those in the rear will find the head and leg room restricted. The boot was also disappointing. Its not only smaller than its rivals, but it also has a high load lip and a narrow opening. At least the quality of the Alfa’s fixtures and fittings are a huge improvement over its predecessor. The soft-touch surfaces, lined storage areas and damped controls are the best here. There’s a solidity about the new car that was lacking in the old, although this was somewhat undermined by squeaks and rattles in the test car.

Summary
Alfa 2/5
Ford 5/5
Honda 5/5


Alfa 147 1.6 Twin Spark

FOR: Style; equipment; desirability; performance.
AGAINST: Ride; economy; residuals; rear and boot space.
VERDICT: Stylish but let down by spaces and dynamics.
OVERALL RATING: 3/5

Ford Focus 1.6 Zetec

FOR: Ride and handling; style; interior space; comfort.
AGAINST: Used values; performance; equipment.
VERDICT: An exceptional car, compromised by weak residuals.
OVERALL RATING: 5/5

Honda Civic 1.6

FOR: Space; comfort; ride; residuals; equipment; value.
AGAINST: Dull styling inside and out; interior trim quality.
VERDICT: Superb all-rounder and the new class champion.
OVERALL RATING: 5/5

[ivo]

These types of test are utterly ridiculous.

Why dont these idiotic English magazines actually reveal the weighting each category is assigned.
i.e By how much is ride and handling more important than re-sale value? How much does style matter over substance?

It appears somethings matter above others to these Car magazines. Im sure if you'd asked three different people they'd have gone for three different cars for various reasons...?

I choose a Golf for these reasons -
1. My buddy works for VW.
2. I valued how much I'd have left in my pocket after 3 years more above a better drving experience. The money left over would bring me a few grand closer to a car which had the performance to match its driving ambition.

[Toad]

How can they give the Focus 5/5 when it has against it AGAINST: Used values; performance; equipment.

Three important factor's of buying a car

[ivo]

Toad,

I was about to say if the Focus had good residuals it would probably get 6/5 !

[WhipLash]

...but there was a third category which I didn't have time to type in!!!

The third one being BUYING AND OWNING. This included such items as price, cost of ownership per year, depreciation/resale value, MPG, service intervals, emissions (UK road tax to be based on emissions), after-care package (warranty).

In the UK the Focus was initially £13,500 with 1 year warranty. Now it retails for £11,995 and comes with a 3-year warranty. That’s a reduction of over 11%! Even so, Whatcar managed to shop around and source a new one for £10,885, yet another saving of nearly 10%!! :eek:

On the other hand high initial demand for the new 147 and Civic should help keep prices buoyant in the short term. The Alfa also has 3-year warranty, the Civic 3 years or 90,000 miles. The Civic will have the best resale value, and their drivers will be wearing the widest grin come resale time. The outgoing Civic retains 45% of its value, and the new model is expected to do even better. The Focus is a best seller and so there's a glut of them on the second hand market - hence the second-hand models go cheap. After 3 years 36,000 miles of driving one would retain 38% of its value. Yet this is still better then the outgoing Alfa 147, which only manages to retain 30%. The new model is much more desirable, but it would be surprising to see it better the figures of the Focus. As well as topping the depreciation league, the Alfa will also be the most expensive to run, based on such things as MPG, emissions, servicing intervals and insurance costs.

Summary
Alfa 3/5
Ford 4/5
Honda 4/5

[WhipLash]

Whatcar carried out a separate 'Comfort Test' on 50 cars to see which ones were a pain or pleasure to drive - and the new Honda Civic won that too!

Alfa 147 2.0 Selespeed rated (out of 5 for each category):

Access: 3
Driving Position: 3
Control Layout: 3
Visibility: 3
Overall: 3

(consistent, eh?)


Honda Civic 1.6SE Executive
Access: 5
Driving Position: 4
Control Layout: 4
Visibility: 4
Overall: 5

The Civic beat off the other 49 contenders (which even included the BMW 520i SE, 330I SE, new Renault Laguna, Focus Saloon, Merc E240 Avantgarde, Pug 607, Alfa 156, VW Passat...to win!

The following got the 'recommended' award.

Alfa 156, Hyundai Amica, Ford Fiesta, new Ford Mondeo, Toyota Rav4, Chrysler PT Crusier, Volvo S80 T6 and the Ford Puma.

[BeCos]

One must not forget that the residual values, running costs, insurance, desirability, waiting lists, costs, servicing costs, road surfaces etc in this Country are ALL quite different making a test that compares any or all of the above......POINTLESS and INNACCURATE.

I am not totaly blinkered nor am I particularly Alfa biased......I just prefer them!! The Focus is a superb car from a mass market manufacturer, the Civic will never be in the same class IMO, and the new one is a people carrier. The Alfa as I've said before doesn't compare well with Focus/Astra/Golf, maybe it should, but it doesn't, and it IS cramped in the back!

It is interesting to see what they said about the ride handling though, although I would prefer to make my own mind up as I rarely agree with UK car testers over anything to do with suspension set ups and I dont believe that any more than 10% of people would see the difference from one car nowdays to another!!

[WhipLash]

Originally posted by BeCos
One must not forget that the residual values, running costs, insurance, desirability, waiting lists, costs, servicing costs, road surfaces etc in this Country are ALL quite different making a test that compares any or all of the above......POINTLESS and INNACCURATE.


IMHO Yes and No. OK so not everything is going to be the same price etc, but the Alfa WILL be more expensive to insure than the other 2 cars, it WILL depreciate more (most likely anyway), desirability should not be all the different (the Alfa being the most desirable), so I don't think its all pointless...just not accurate when it comes to figures.

Originally posted by BeCos
It is interesting to see what they said about the ride handling though, although I would prefer to make my own mind up as I rarely agree with UK car testers over anything to do with suspension set ups and I dont believe that any more than 10% of people would see the difference from one car nowdays to another!!

Well if the 147 really IS that bad on UK roads, imagine how bad it will feel over here!! When you do get to drive it, ask the salesman for a glass of water before hand. Why? Stick it in the 147 cup holder and see if there’s ANY water left when you hand the car back!!! :p

[Anders]

Exactly what do we know about Focus residuals, beyond predictions by British car magazines? Is this just an assumption that they are crap or are there undisputable facts? It depreciation is really bad, it'll be a great car to pick up used.

So has anyone actually driven the 147 yet?

[Junior]

I've just had a look over at Autotrader.ie and some of the Focus's (or is that Focui ?) are looking like this

Ford Focus Zetec, 1999, 22000 miles, red, 3 door, RS bodykit, CD player, central locking, electric windows, sunroof, 15" alloys, immaculate condition inside & out, bargain buy. £11,250

Ford Focus Zetec, 1999, 22000 miles, red, 1.4, 3 door, red, wind breakers, RS body kit, 15" alloy wheels, spoiler, C/L, E/W, sunroof, 6 disc CD player, immaculate condition, bargain buy.. £10,500

So I don't think they are completely bullet proof.

[BeCos]

No I haven't driven one yet.....probably after Christmas.

I think UK road testers try to find defficiencies in the suspension that really most of us would never encounter.

I also dont believe that the Alfa will depreciate more than either of the other! UK residuals bear NO resemblence to Irish ones as the demand and supply of any cars are quite different and these are contributing factors.

[Phil]

I was out with whippy at the weekend looking at Honda's. I had a good look at the new Honda Civic hatchback and I have to say I was very disappointed. The Civic has hung up its Nike runners to swap them for a pair of Clake shoes. It even got the look of a Focus at the front of the car. Why???? I have never been a fan of the focus and now everyone is copying their damn design. If I had a choice between the Civic and the Alfa 147 I know which one I'd go for. The Alfa 147 of course.

http://www.eforecourt.com/images/civic.gif

[ivo]

Well said Phil.

I see Drive! castigated the new Civic on Fridays show, labelling it disappointing in the extreme.
This is in contrast with Whatcar!. Drive say the steering gives poor feedback...whatcar the opposite ...

Well Phil , Whats your prognosis?

(PS I still didnt here how the 147 was received on Drive!two weeks ago.)

[WhipLash]

Originally posted by ivo

(PS I still didnt here how the 147 was received on Drive!two weeks ago.)

As far as I can remember, it was reviewed by that guy from Bullisland. He gave the car the thumbs up for its handling and impressive high level of standard equipment. His only gripe was the small size of the boot space and rear legroom.

Of course Alfa had provided the most expensive model with leather for him to review, so what else could he say?

I've only seen two 147's on the roads since their launch. It would be interesting to know how the sales are actually doing. I'd imagine that the omission of a 1.4 version in Ireland for this size of car is hurting sales badly.

[Phil]

To be honest Ivo, I did'nt take the car out. I would have been afraid that the car might take me shopping or something like that.

The inside looked like something made by Tonka toys. It had 3 big plastic round buttons the size of a mini disc in the middle console. The gearbox mounted on the dash seemed a nice touch, but overall the car felt more like a kids toy than a car.