Teflon - Its here! Yikes!!

[BrianS]

I wondered how long it would be, but I just spotted a valeting co who are now selling a teflon sealant service for your car. I won't say who they are here but they have a big ad in the new edition of golden pages. I decided to Email the manufacturer of the product in the UK with a presales sort of query which was slightly challenging in nature. They didn't even have the courtesy to reply but if they do I'll let you know what they say. I'll give them a few days more before I accept victory!! You know I don't give names here on the forum, because the opinions are my own. If anyone wants the brand, I'll give it to them if they drop me a private message. I'll even give a copy of the mail I sent them if you want!

Basically, teflon or PTFE needs to go through a baking process before it bonds to anything (over 300 degrees). These "sealants" are usually a chemical similar to polymer wax with a small percentage of teflon thrown in, and with a little bit of marketing to the general public, Voila !! you have a product that people think they want. Thing is this Co claims that you'll never wax again, but they do recommend that you apply a wash & gloss as ongoing maintenance. Right, so we don't have to wax ever again but we do need to use their product for ongoing paint maintenance. (What?? Am I missing something here).

This company also sells a dry-wash product. (Oh No!) If you have a dirty car, would you consider rubbing it with a cloth dampened by a "wet solution". It has wetting agents and lubricants, but come on!! You'll scratch your car if there's dirt or grit. Can't see how any company can call themselves professionals if they make or use stuff like this. I suppose its about Money not Love!!

As Jennifer Aniston says, here's the science: A sealant should certainly be polymer based, but what you should be looking for is an amino-functional polymer. An amino is basically a protein-like chemical. It will bond to the paint on the car without any problems and will last years (with proper pre-treatment), but unlike fake Teflon products, it is kind of expensive.

TGIF !! Have a grand weekend, lads.

Brian

[WhipLash]

Ah sure go on then Brian, PM me the gory details! :D

[BrianS]

I'll see if they give me a response by Monday first....

B.

[WhipLash]

Brian, exactly how effective is this teflon sealant? If it is applied in the correct way (ie baked), exactly what effect will it have? How long would it last before another application is required? I take it that the 'proper' method of having it applied to your car is an expensive process, so do the benefits outweigh the costs?

Is there any sign that the car manufacturers will introduce a teflon sealant into their manufacturing process?

Oh yeah, any reply on the email you sent off?

[BeCos]

Hey Brian I'd like to know more about this product, couild you PM me the details?

If there are no adverse affects to the paintwork then I think I'll try it out for the crack !!

I could then do a report here on the results !:p

[BrianS]

To be fair, they responded to me saying that their Technical Manager is on hols until Thursday and I will receive a proper answer then. In the meantime, I did a lot of other research on the subject. But first, I must correct myself on something before I continue. There are a few different types of Teflon going around and there is a liquid form of it which is used in car care chemicals. I will give all of the info in a PM to you lads, but I was initially told that Teflon won't form a bond unless heated to over 300 degrees. Its not true with this type of teflon, but since teflon reacts with virtually nothing, the bond is only as strong as the chemical it is mixed with. Stand-by, I'll PM my findings over to you and maybe give a full review on Friday on the forum when I get a response from the company. Give me any of your opinions or Q's about what I have in the PM as well.

Take Care Out There,

Brian.

[WhipLash]

Originally posted by BeCos
If there are no adverse affects to the paintwork then I think I'll try it out for the crack !!

I could then do a report here on the results !:p

Hey Ben, maybe you could have the Teflon baked onto one half of your car and use the liquid compond on the other! lol. :D

This is getting very interesting Brian, keep us posted on the outcome.

[BrianS]

Ben et al.,

What I have so far is too big for a PM. Drop me your email addy in a PM to me and I will forward it to you. Its kind of interesting, if you're in to that sort of thing!!!

B.

[BrianS]

Well, nobody ever replied to me from the UK company selling this stuff. I did a bit more research on it though but I've left it all at home. I'll post it up in a new thread tonight or over the next day or two. Some interesting stuff. ( sort of!!)

Brian.

[WhipLash]

I read your mail the other day Brian. It certainly makes for very interesting reading.

Would you say that a Teflon car protection product could replace the traditional (read 'present-day') car wax if the price settles at a more realistic level?

[BrianS]

The problem with it is that it must be applied with a high-speed buffer or polisher. These machines are diffidult to get the hang of. I mentioned ages ago that I bought a buffer for £40 out of Argos and it took chips out of the paint. Its still sitting there - I'm afraid to use it! I did spend a heap of money on a "real one" since then and its much nicer to work with. Although after working on the entire car with it, my hands were shaking badly for the rest of the day! Worse than DT's - I was afraid I'd take my eye out with my dinner-fork!!

But this is the main issue with the teflon-based wax. Hand-applied waxes are easy to work with and give a very nice finish. I would quite happily recommend them over a Teflon one for ease of use and high quality finish. There's no need to bother with buffer for working at home, unless its a good one.

Actually another thing has just dawned on me. Using a buffer always gives a really, really deep shine - far more so than hand-applying a wax. I've used ordinary wax with the polisher and was highly impressed with the result. Applying the teflon product, people are going to think that its the product that gives such a shiny finish, when in fact its the process. Another piece of wool to pull over our eyes.

Brian.

[BrianS]

The information here comes from a lot of research into the subject and also after contacting some car care product manufacturers, and experienced car care professionals. I have even heard from one company in the US who invested $6000 on a franchise for a Teflon Coating product and gave it up within two years due to its poor performance. I must first say that from my initial findings, I’m not willing to part with my money in order to do a practical test on the sealant. If you wish to invest in the product, well, its your money! If you intend to or have tried a Teflon product, maybe you can let me know if you like or dislike it. ( FYI, I’ll give it a trial if someone ever sends me a free sample!) Of Course, the info here is my opinion based solely on my research into the products. If you want to ask me any questions about it, fire away.

Here goes : Teflon has been a buzzword in the Motor Trade for over twenty years and for companies who have manufactured and sold products containing Teflon for added protection, it has been a real money-spinner. It was originally discovered by the chemicals giant DuPont, and they stumbled upon it quite by accident. They were performing some experiments and found they had this substance as a waste by-product. They were about to discard it when a technician ran some tests on it and found it was it reacted with virtually nothing. Literally, it was a fantastic discovery. Teflon was originally sold for many other uses before the motor industry introduced it as an ingredient to their products.

Now, there two basic forms of Teflon - a liquid version and a powder version. The powder is the one we find on our frying pans, etc. It is melted on at a very high temperature and is quite delicate, ie., never use metal on them. The liquid version mixes in with whatever chemical it is intended to work with, and this is the one I have been investigating. Firstly though check this. The following is an interesting excerpt from a Report on DuPonts findings and Court cases regarding the use of Teflon in Motor Oil products:

….DuPont's Fluoropolymers Division Product Specialist, J.F. Imbalzano said, "Teflon is not useful as an ingredient in oil additives or oils used for internal combustion engines." At the time, DuPont threatened legal action against anyone who used the name "Teflon" on any oil product destined for use in an internal combustion engine, and refused to sell its PTFE powders to anyone who intended to use them for such purposes. After a flurry of lawsuits from oil additive makers, claiming DuPont could not prove that PTFE was harmful to engines, DuPont was forced to once again begin selling their PTFE to the additive producers. The additive makers like to claim this is some kind of "proof' that their products work, when in fact it is nothing more than proof that the American legal ethic of "innocent until proven guilty" is still alive and well. The decision against Dupont involved what is called "restraint of trade." You can't refuse to sell a product to someone just because there is a possibility they might use it for a purpose other than what you intended it for.

Things that make you go hmmmm! This came out in the late 80’s and highlights the way manufacturer’s like to use buzz-words. To ordinary people looking at two similar oil products on a shelf, I think that the one with “Contains Teflon” would encourage a purchase more so than a regular product. So what if it’s a few quid more expensive! There was also a letter released by DuPont, similar to the report above, regarding the use of Teflon in Car Paint Care products but it seems to have disappeared into the ether - I couldn’t find it anywhere, but I’m sure it existed!! However, I did find this report from 1989 from a car care trade magazine who ran lots of tests arising from DuPont’s statements and subsequent Court cases. Here’s a direct quote from the mag:

“My conclusion is based on the information I have gathered in the past year from representatives, lab technicians and chemists from many leading car care product companies, including DuPont, the maker of Teflon. According to G.R. Ansul of DuPont's Car Care Products Division, "The addition of a Teflon fluoropolymer resin does nothing to enhance the properties of a car wax. We have no data that indicates the use of Teflon fluoropolymer resins is beneficial in car waxes, and we have not seen data from other people that supports this position.”
Ansul also notes that, "Unless Teflon is applied at 700 degrees F (371 degrees C), it is not a viable ingredient, and it is 100 percent useless in protecting the paint's finish."”

Well, that’s all negative so far for Teflon-enhanced products. Let me give some positive feedback. Its easy to put on and will give good protection for about 6 months if the car is your daily driver. It also gives a nice glossy shine. If you apply it to your car and then put your car into storage forever, then I could understand a statement like “You will never need to wax your car again.” But who on earth would do this? Maybe a Classic Car collector (?) but these Car Care Companies do not aim their products at the Collectors. They aim them at the Joe/Jane Sixpack like you and I. How else will they make money in what is a highly competitive marketplace?

So now the question is, are there any “permanent” sealants out there? My search is on, but I don’t think I’ll find one here or in the UK. For now, I’ll get out and keep a nice coating of wax on the car. From what I heard, Teflon is a lot cheaper than it used to be, but only when purchased in big drums by manufacturers - not us consumers. This should mean that a Teflon-enhanced product should be only marginally more expensive than a good polymer wax. But it looks like either its not in their interests to make a cheaper product or they are still hanging on to the Buzzword because people are still willing to believe that Teflon will save their car!

A few weeks ago, as a potential customer, I asked a British manufacturer of a Teflon product to tell me if it was true that Teflon needs to be heated over 300 degrees before a proper bond occurs, and if so how can it work on a car? I received a short response that their Technical manager was on holidays and will respond upon his return. I’m still waiting. On their web site, they claimed that you would never have to wax your car again, but interestingly you did need to use an ongoing maintenance gloss product to keep the car shining. Are we given any credit??

I’ll finish off with a conclusion that I sent to some people already. (I’m tired of typing!)

Taking a step back, it looks like it’s a product that exists because of demand. People are still willing and wanting to believe that Teflon is a miracle product which will save their beautiful car from getting old. Fine! If there’s a demand, then if its not met by one company then another will gladly step in and reap the profits. The problem I have with it is that companies should not be profiting on people’s ignorance. (I know- I’m awake, I can smell coffee) However, a car valet company must be aware of what is going in the trade and should not sell products unless they know how it works and why. If they don’t know then in my opinion, they are not professional. Everyone respects a craftsman, and although car valeting is not exactly a craft, there is an art to doing it properly and professionally. Mastering it will get you customers and respect. Tomorrow’s market is assured when you can rely on the absolute quality of today’s product. Why do they want to mess it up for a few quick sponds and a shoddy product. Amateurs!

Conclusion: My opinion is that teflon sealant is probably good if you want something that will need two applications per year, depending on conditions, but it needs to be applied with a high-speed buffer for best results. By conditions, I mean is it a car that you drive to the shop once a week, or do you go from Donegal to Cork to Dublin on sales trips. Also take a look at where we are! We have Irish weather, roads and mucky driving conditions to contend with. No wonder we grasp at these products like straws. Can anything stop our cars from looking like crap after a week of driving to work? Probably not! I’m going to stick with what I like for now - Regular waxing and frequent hand washing. Forget Teflon on cars. It seems to me that anyone claiming that you will never need to wax again is either grossly misled, or a bit of a fibber. Or is that what they call true marketing?